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One factor tomorrow’s election will check is People’ urge for food for chaos, notably the sort that Donald Trump has been exhibiting in the previous couple of months of his marketing campaign. After weeks of operating a disciplined marketing campaign, Trump’s advisers misplaced management of their candidate, the Atlantic workers author Tim Alberta reported this week. Trump grew stressed and bored and drifted off script in his marketing campaign appearances. Throughout a summer time interview with the Nationwide Affiliation of Black Journalists, for instance, he mused aloud about Kamala Harris, “I don’t know. Is she Indian or is she Black?” From the angle of his advisers, Trump’s string of offensive public statements needlessly alienated potential voters. Members of Trump’s marketing campaign workers advised Alberta that they turned disillusioned about their means to rein of their candidate and left the marketing campaign.
Will this unleashed model of Trump have an effect on the election final result? On this week’s episode of Radio Atlantic, we speak with Alberta and one other Atlantic workers author, Mark Leibovich, about how candidate Trump reworked over the summer time, how Kamala Harris’s marketing campaign reacted, the place every marketing campaign stands now, and what it means for the election. Alberta and Leibovich additionally provide recommendations on methods to handle your internal chaos whereas watching the election outcomes.
The next is a transcript of the episode:
Hanna Rosin: I’m Hanna Rosin, and it is a bonus episode of Radio Atlantic. We’re recording the Monday earlier than Election Day. The candidates are furiously campaigning within the swing states. Sooner or later, their planes had been on the identical tarmac in North Carolina.
Over the weekend, Donald Trump mused about capturing reporters; Kamala Harris mentioned regular marketing campaign issues. And but the race continues to be one of many closest in American historical past.
Anyway, on this episode, I need to get the within view of each political campaigns of their final days. So I’ve with me in the present day two seasoned political reporters, Mark Leibovich. Hello, Mark.
Mark Leibovich: Hello, Hanna.
Rosin: And Tim Alberta. Hello, Tim.
Tim Alberta: Hello, Hanna. Hello, Mark.
Leibovich: Hello, Tim. Isn’t it good to be seasoned in the present day?
Alberta: I’m feeling very seasoned.
Rosin: Yeah, that’s a cliché phrase. It doesn’t imply previous. What’s a extra flattering phrase than seasoned? Like, skilled? Or longtime? Longtime: that’s flattering, I believe.
Leibovich: It’s undoubtedly flattering.
Alberta: We don’t use veteran.
Rosin: No, veteran is previous. How about lively?
Leibovich: Yeah, we’re very lively. Yeah. Are you able to inform by our voices?
Rosin: (Laughs.) Anyway, Mark, I perceive you’re writing up a preelection information to methods to method Tuesday evening.
Leibovich: Mainly, I’m making an attempt to gather a useful toolkit to methods to method Election Day from type of a sensible standpoint so far as what info you possibly can ignore, but additionally a behavior and even mindfulness standpoint about methods to not drive your self needlessly loopy, how to not be triggered by the sorts of issues that Election Evening protection will in all probability overload you with.
And that features Donald Trump in all probability declaring victory wildly prematurely or erroneously, which, I imply, will likely be information as a result of he’s one of many candidates, however it additionally ought to shock nobody. And there are methods to sort of situation your self, or attempt to, going into what tomorrow evening will likely be like—which will likely be clearly very anxious for lots of people.
Rosin: I see. So as a substitute of “We all know it’s going to be like that,” like, “We all know that we don’t have sufficient info.”
We all know that there in all probability isn’t going to be, type of, instantaneous early readability. So that you’re going into it eyes huge open, doing what? Like, what? As a result of perhaps Tim wants this recommendation.
Leibovich: Effectively, I’m making an attempt. Effectively, I believe all of us want this recommendation, Hanna. I imply, I believe it’s an method to how we eat info, how we get info.
I talked to a few Democratic consultants who mentioned that one of many first issues they do is flip off all their textual content notifications, as a result of any sort of textual content notification is designed to set off you on Election Evening.
There may be a number of manipulation of your feelings earlier than the precise solely info that’s obligatory, which, essentially the most invaluable info goes to come back in in all probability after 11 o’clock, or fairly late. It could possibly be days later. The concept is the information will discover you. Flip off your cellphone in case you can. Data is coming in haphazardly from 1,000,000 totally different instructions, out of order, in no specific sequence in any way, about one thing that has already occurred—that means the voting has already occurred. So no management is there. That is principally simply folks throwing info out in no order, and it’s not essentially—
Rosin: It’s not cumulative and it’s not including as much as—
Leibovich: —Not cumulative.
Rosin: Precisely. Precisely.
Leibovich: So anyway, that’s one purpose you possibly can skip that half.
Rosin: Fascinating. Tim, do you suppose you would try this?
Alberta: I concern that within the try to not drive myself loopy, I’d drive myself loopy. In different phrases, you’d discover your mind stacking up with the entire issues that different folks know that you simply don’t, as a result of in that second you have got determined to sequester your self or at the least to type of rigidly compartmentalize your feelings and your mind waves and your political consumption.
And subsequently the exit polling exhibiting the variety of non-college whites in Maricopa County breaking away from Trump is misplaced on you in that pivotal second, when that could possibly be the little parcel of data that’s obligatory so that you can consider that you’ve got lastly discovered this electoral equation and that you’ve got a bead on it on this second.
It’s a sport of inches, and the inches are all over the place round us, Hanna. So how might I quit any of these inches after we are so near the top of the sport? I need the zen that Mark is providing, however I simply don’t discover it sensible.
Rosin: Hmm. You understand how typically you begin with the second of meditation? We’ll contemplate that our second of meditation, and now we’re gonna go into the anxious a part of this dialog. So, Tim, you’ve been overlaying the Republican facet carefully, and you latterly spent a number of time speaking to Trump’s advisers.
How would you describe the state of the marketing campaign within the weeks earlier than the election?
Alberta: I’d describe it as one thing barely faraway from the serenity that Mark has described for us.
Rosin: Sure. Okay. Yeah.
Alberta: Yeah, look, Hanna, I believe the context right here is de facto essential: that this Trump marketing campaign, not like the earlier two, was for almost all of its time in operation, actually fairly disciplined, fairly good.
The folks operating the marketing campaign had accomplished a reasonably good job of conserving Trump out of his personal manner and speaking him out of dangerous concepts and type of curbing a few of his most self-destructive impulses. And what we’ve seen within the final couple of months is principally Trump going full Trump, and an incapability amongst these senior advisers to actually do something to cease it.
This has been sort of the proverbial slow-motion automobile wreck. And, you realize, it’s not simply Trump himself, though in fact he’s the inspiration for the chaos. He’s the generator of the entire turmoil that you simply see.
He’s on the heart of this chaos, however the chaos ripples out away from him. And so whenever you ask your self the query of how might or not it’s that at crucial public occasion of the marketing campaign, with 20,000-plus jammed into Madison Sq. Backyard in prime time, the entire world watching, and also you pay 1,000,000 {dollars} to placed on this occasion, and the man who kicks it off is a vulgar, shock jock, insult-roast comic who was dropped by his personal expertise company for utilizing racial slurs onstage—how might this particular person presumably be booked into that place to open for Trump in that setting? It’s precisely the type of factor that the folks round him had been actually profitable in avoiding for many of the marketing campaign. However in the end, in the important thing residence stretch right here, within the type of the witching hours of this marketing campaign, it’s all fallen aside.
Rosin: Mark, identical for the Democrats. How would you describe the place they’re?
Leibovich: I’d say I’ve talked to a good variety of Democrats on the marketing campaign in the previous couple of days.
It appears like one thing approaching the final space of the ballpark of confidence.
Rosin: Fascinating! Anomalous for Democrats.
Leibovich: Effectively, they’re so extremely fast to embrace dangerous information and to go proper from dangerous information to deep ranges of doomsaying. I’ve not seen that in the previous couple of days.
I imply, look, I believe their numbers internally appear slightly higher. I believe a number of the exterior polls have been encouraging. And I believe you possibly can’t underestimate how a lot of a practice wreck Trump’s final 10 days have been, in a manner that, if he loses, I believe folks will very a lot level to.
Rosin: So, Mark, I bear in mind we sat right here within the spring and mentioned how completely stagnant this race can be. Like, we had been simply sleepwalking right into a repeat.
Leibovich: Nevertheless it was an amazing podcast. Everybody ought to hearken to it once more. (Laughs.)
Rosin: Nevertheless it was very, you realize—we didn’t have a lot to say. After which for everyone, the reset button bought pressed in July.
Tim, the total Trump who we’ve seen on the marketing campaign path for the previous couple of months began, truly, in response to your account, earlier than Harris entered the race. So what occurred?
Alberta: I believe that perhaps the right visible right here, Hanna, is just like the wild animal that has chased down its prey and has mauled it principally to dying and is now simply type of pawing at it, toying with it, uncertain of actually what to do as a result of, effectively, what’s left to do?
Donald Trump actually discovered himself, in response to all of the reporting I did, type of over it. Type of uninterested in operating in opposition to Joe Biden. As a result of right here is, in his view, this type of hapless previous man who can’t even string collectively sentences, a lot much less actually defend himself or go on offense in a significant manner in opposition to Trump. And so I believe that he’s Joe Biden considering, Gosh that is type of a bore, and round this time, in fact, in late June, early July, Trump’s polling is best than it’s ever been in any of his three campaigns for the presidency.
The battleground polling is exhibiting him persistently pulling forward 5, six, seven factors throughout all of those states. The nationwide polling is up. His favorability is up. Democrats are making ready for a massacre not simply to lose the presidency however to lose the Home and the Senate, and it’s, you realize, The sky is falling. And everybody round Trump is type of giddy and gleeful. They’re trying round like, Nothing can cease us.
And round this time is whenever you began to see Trump speaking slightly bit otherwise, behaving slightly bit otherwise, in response to folks near him—nearly on the lookout for some dysfunction and a few mayhem to inject into the marketing campaign. He begins speaking to folks on the skin. And when Kamala Harris will get within the race, he was offended, on the one hand, as a result of he thought he had it type of sewn up in opposition to Biden, and he preferred operating in opposition to Biden within the sense that Biden actually, you realize, couldn’t punch again.
However I believe additionally he’s type of excited within the sense that with Harris, he’s bought this reside goal. He’s capable of channel a number of the base instincts that introduced him to energy within the first place. You already know, Trump, I believe, seen the Harris switcheroo as a brand new lease on life within the sense that he was going to have the ability to go complete hog once more.
However the folks round him had been saying, No, no, no, no. That’s precisely what we don’t need you to do. And albeit, the explanation you’re on this place is since you’ve listened to us and since you haven’t been going rogue and operating the sort of, you realize, completely undisciplined #YOLO 2016 marketing campaign that you simply wish to run and that you’d run in case you had been left to your individual gadgets. And round that point is when Trump began to lose confidence in these individuals who had been giving him that recommendation, and he introduced in different folks to assist with the marketing campaign, and from there issues actually began to spiral.
Rosin: So, Mark, how are Democrats responding as Trump is reasserting this peak-Trump model of himself?
Leibovich: I believe in a sort of measured manner. I imply, I believe, look, the height Trump just about speaks for itself. It’s not such as you want folks to amplify. I imply, to some extent you do, as a result of shops that a number of Republicans watch—like, say, Fox—are going to be insulated from a number of this, as a result of simply Fox doesn’t present it.
I imply, that’s simply not their level of emphasis, However I believe they’ve been very deft—they’ve made a number of adverts across the sort of altering abortion messaging. I imply, even Melania Trump saying that she believes in a girl’s proper to decide on, issues like that, to some extent, they’re making an attempt to focus on it, however to a different diploma—it is a large political-operative cliché, however they’re operating their race.
And I believe the Democrats, starting when Biden stepped apart, I believe Harris has carried out a lot better than lots of people thought she would, and I believe her marketing campaign has made a number of good selections, and he or she herself has made a number of good selections.
Rosin: It does, from the skin, appear precisely the alternative of the chaos contained in the Trump marketing campaign that Tim described, as a result of in case you suppose again to when Biden dropped out, there was some fear that the transition may not be easy.
Leibovich: Oh, one hundred pc. I imply, Tim and I, bear in mind, we had been on the Republican conference collectively, and that was such a second, as a result of Trump was actually sort of at his peak then, which is sort of ironic to say, as a result of the assassination try had taken place two days earlier than the conference began. However his recognition, I imply—there was a way of confidence at that conference which was simply off the charts to a level to which you would nearly sense the boredom creeping into Trump when he’s giving this acceptance speech, and I suppose it was Thursday evening, after which about midway by way of, he simply sort of went off the rails, and he simply type of—it turned only a very unhinged acceptance speech, went from sort of a gripping one the place he’s describing the assassination try to one thing utterly totally different, which sort of turned a metaphor for the way the remainder of the marketing campaign would unfurl for him.
And naturally, three days later, Biden bought out after which the world modified once more.
Rosin: All proper, up subsequent, I ask Tim and Mark whether or not the chaotic remaining months of the Trump marketing campaign might find yourself costing him the election. That’s after the break.
[Break]
Rosin: So from a marketing campaign supervisor’s perspective, the chaos is disturbing, however what we truly care about is whether or not it has any influence on voting day. Tim, so what are the methods the drama you describe might have an effect on the election? Like, say, turnout or no matter it’s that we’re anxious about?
Alberta: Effectively, look, if these episodes had been contained to simply Trump being slightly bit goofy or going off message and type of ranting and raving concerning the newest one who mentioned one thing very nasty about him on cable information, I don’t suppose it could have a lot real-world impact. However I believe that a few of what we’re unpacking right here over these previous 10, 11, 12 weeks, Hanna, is one thing that truly will get to a elementary weak spot, which is a failure of the Trump group to increase its coalition.
Or on the very least what we’re seeing is the best way through which the potential of increasing the Trump coalition has been undermined by Trump’s personal actions or by the folks near him. So, for instance, we all know based mostly on six months of actually strong, constant information that Trump is more likely to carry out higher with Latino voters as a complete and notably with Latino males underneath 40 than any Republican nominee in trendy historical past.
And but, when the dominant headline popping out of your rally at Madison Sq. Backyard the week earlier than the election is that considered one of your audio system calls the island of Puerto Rico floating trash within the ocean, that is self-sabotage.
One other core part of this Trump marketing campaign, from the start, has been How can we maintain our margins tight within the suburbs outdoors of Detroit and Milwaukee and Philly and Vegas and elsewhere? How can we maintain our margins tight with these college-educated, suburban ladies? We’re not going to win them, proper? However how can we handle to maintain it shut? How can we lose them by simply seven or eight factors as a substitute of by 16, 17, 18, 20 factors?
And whenever you take a look at, for instance, the collection of J. D. Vance and, you realize, his previous, greatest-hits reel round childless cat women, and he thinks abortion needs to be unlawful nationwide, proper?
And there’s simply one thing that type of went essentially awry over the summer time. I believe Mark is true. Each of us had been remarking on the conference about the way it was successfully an early Election Evening victory celebration. I imply, they weren’t even—Republicans in Milwaukee weren’t even speaking concerning the marketing campaign as if it had been going to be aggressive. It was already over. The fats girl was singing onstage in prime time in Milwaukee. And but, I bear in mind corresponding with a number of good Republicans—Trump supporters—whereas I used to be there, and so they had been slightly bit nervous concerning the Vance choice. After which on Thursday evening, to Mark’s level, Trump offers this type of bizarre, meandering speech that appears to squander a number of the goodwill that he had coming into that occasion due to the assassination try. And it felt like between these two issues—the Vance choice after which the speech—after which, you realize, 24 hours after leaving Milwaukee, Biden will get out, Harris takes over the ticket, and all of a sudden, these dominoes began to fall.
And what we noticed was the entire best-laid plans of the Trump operation go awry. And it wasn’t simply surface-level issues the place we are saying, Oh, that was type of foolish he mentioned that. Or Oh, this was an unforced error, however it’ll be a fast information cycle and blow over. A few of what we’ve seen, I believe, could have an actual influence on the poll field.
Rosin: So what you’re describing is a marketing campaign technique that’s pretty conventional that they had been following pretty efficiently, which is: try to win over, you realize, some middle-of-the-road voters, or at the least not massively alienate these folks.
However, Trump has been operating a really totally different sort of marketing campaign—like going to Madison Sq. Backyard—and fewer on-the-ground sources. And that looks like a sample throughout swing states, which for me raises the query whether or not what these managers are calling chaos, like, that’s the technique.
The technique was all the time simply: get a number of consideration.
Alberta: I believe it will depend on the kind of consideration you’re speaking about. So when Trump goes to the southern border and has, you realize, lots of of cameras following him round there and talks concerning the lives misplaced by the hands of unlawful immigrants committing crimes—you realize, that’s consideration, and it could possibly even be consideration that’s rooted in some hyperbole, some demagoguing, some bombast. And but it’s productive consideration politically for the Trump folks, proper? They take a look at this type of cost-benefit evaluation and so they acknowledge that, certain, we’d antagonize some folks with this rhetoric. We would alienate some folks with our deal with these points, however we predict that the reward is way better than the chance.
So there may be, I believe, loads of good consideration that the Trump folks do need. I believe what they’ve tried to keep away from is a number of the sideshow that’s interesting to a number of the very on-line, right-wing, MAGA troll base however does nothing so as to add to the coalition that I used to be describing a minute in the past. And in the end on the finish of the day, politics is a math equation. It’s multiplication and addition.
Leibovich: Proper, and I believe, to Tim’s level, immigration was an extremely efficient challenge for Trump. Once you tip that into folks consuming pets in Springfield, Ohio, and simply how that took over the narrative of the Trump marketing campaign—I imply, one, they seem like fools; two, it insults the intelligence of so many individuals, and it turns a really critical and efficient challenge for the Trump marketing campaign, immigration, right into a joke and into simply one thing actually, actually problematic and gross.
Rosin: So the artwork of operating a Trump marketing campaign, then, is to siphon and handle and titrate the chaos precisely proper. Like, you need the proper of chaos, the proper of consideration, however in case you lose management of it, it simply comes again to chunk you. Is that principally what’s occurred?
Alberta: Yeah, and it’s all the time gonna be a high-wire act, proper? These folks aren’t silly. They knew what they had been getting themselves into. In actual fact, Chris LaCivita—who is without doubt one of the two folks managing the Trump presidential marketing campaign right here in 2024—inside just a few weeks of his determination to hitch the operation again within the fall of 2022, you have got Trump saying that he desires to terminate elements of the Structure. You’ve Trump saying and doing these type of loopy, self-destructive issues. And LaCivita is type of trying round saying, What have I gotten myself into?
And naturally people who find themselves associates with him are saying, Come on, dude, you knew precisely what you had been signing up for. You already know precisely what you had been getting your self into. So I believe no matter diploma of self-delusion might exist on the outset, when a few of these of us ally themselves with Donald Trump, you realize, it dissolves fairly shortly and so they turn out to be clear-eyed about who they’re working for and what the challenges are.
And to your level, Hanna, sure, there’s inevitably going to be some chaos, some attention-seeking habits, some stuff that’s vulgar and inappropriate and racist and misogynistic and no matter else. Their job is to attempt to flip issues which are sort of doubtlessly poisonous into productiveness. They’re making an attempt to mine coals out of manure right here, and once more, I can’t stress this sufficient: For many of the marketing campaign, they had been truly doing a reasonably good job of it. However at a sure level I believe it simply turns into an excessive amount of to handle.
Rosin: Mark, do you get the sense that the Harris marketing campaign’s—you described it as, like, slightly dose of confidence. Is that due to every little thing that Tim has described?
Leibovich: Yeah. I imply, I believe Trump has given them a lot to work with. And never identical to, Oh, look, he mentioned this and type of placing that on the market. I imply, early indications concerning the revulsion that ladies are having—ladies voters are having for Trump—much more so than standard. And the diploma to which they appear to be voting and perhaps even mendacity to their husbands about—to sort of use a brand new advert that the Harris marketing campaign is utilizing which is principally saying, you realize, a number of Republican ladies are secretly going into the poll, and behind their husband’s again, they’re voting for Kamala Harris. So once more, Trump made their job simpler, however I believe they’ve taken what has been given to them. And I do really feel hopeful. Yeah. Once more, from speaking to a bunch of them, and ranges of very, very cautious optimism—which I’d say, you realize, it could in all probability be an absolute verboten factor for anybody anyplace close to the Harris marketing campaign to indicate something greater than only a tiny little bit of confidence. As a result of that’s going to harken again to the overconfidence of 2016 or the overconfidence of 2020, you realize—Biden was purported to win by much more than he did.
And I believe what freaks everybody out is the concept Trump, within the two occasions he’s been on a general-election poll, has massively overperformed his polls. And now there’s a way that maybe that’s been accounted for in these polls and so they’re undercounting African American voters, ladies voters, and so forth.
So anyway, I believe all of that’s sort of baked into this, however look, I don’t need to recommend that something apart from large anxiousness is the default for everybody round this marketing campaign. And I assume each campaigns.
Rosin: Yeah. Okay. Let’s depart the listeners with ideas about Election Evening. There’s the zen choice, and hopefully lots of our listeners will benefit from the zen choice.
Take a protracted, 12-hour stroll. Be residence by 11 p.m. after which activate the tv. In need of that, the map is de facto huge and open. I imply, seven open states. It’s lots. So for individuals who will not be spiritually constructed for the zen choice, how—actually—will you guys be watching? Like, give a listener a information of what to be careful for on the evening.
Leibovich: Effectively, sure, there are seven battleground states. However I believe there’s lots you possibly can study if you will get info from different states. You already know, there’s a ballot that everybody has been speaking about—a number of insiders have been speaking about over the previous couple of days—from Iowa. Iowa, nobody thought-about a swing state. Safely crimson, definitely has been in the previous couple of elections, definitely for Trump. Ann Selzer, a deeply revered pollster, got here up with this Des Moines Register ballot on Saturday evening, having Harris forward by three.
Now, placing apart whether or not Iowa’s now a battleground state—I imply, if it’s even within the ballpark of correct, I imply, as a euphoric end result for folks on Staff Harris. I imply, look, if there are some early numbers from, say, South Carolina, Florida, that, you realize, perhaps present Trump’s margins slightly decrease than you’d count on, presumably that’s one thing that you may study from.
So once more, it’s not simply the seven battlegrounds, which can in all probability take some time to rely, particularly in a number of the states with legal guidelines that make it more durable to rely early votes. However, yeah, I imply, like, the entire nation does vote. It’s like, margins do matter, and I believe we are able to study from lots of people.
And look, even, like, Massachusetts, Vermont, Kentucky—I imply there are these early states that you realize precisely who’s going to win, however you possibly can study from.
Rosin: As a result of if the margins are smaller than they’re anticipated to be, then that’s a bit of knowledge that’s fascinating. Tim, what about you?
Alberta: So there’s a identified identified, and a identified unknown. The identified identified is that Democrats are persevering with to see erosion of their coalition, particular to African American males, Latino males, and to some extent younger voters.
And I believe particularly if we’re Detroit, at Milwaukee, at Philly, at Atlanta, at Maricopa County—there are locations the place we needs to be listening to this, proper? I believe the identified unknown right here is: Does Donald Trump get overwhelmed up amongst suburban ladies, or does he get demolished amongst suburban ladies?
And I believe that the reply to that query might be determinative to who’s sworn into workplace on January 20.
So I’m actually paying very shut consideration to the collar counties outdoors of Philadelphia, to the WOW counties outdoors of Milwaukee. You must take a look at Vegas and Charlotte and Raleigh-Durham. A few of these locations—I don’t need to be reductive, however I actually do really feel like, in the end, that’s the place the election goes to be gained or misplaced.
Rosin: Each of you might be saying: Search for indicators. It’s not simply large, broad swing states, however there are significant indicators in smaller election outcomes that you simply’ll be on the lookout for.
Alberta: That’s proper. It’s, once more, it’s only a numbers sport. And it so occurs that essentially the most dense, vote-rich areas of persuadable voters are simply persistently present in these as soon as re,d then purple, now fairly blue suburbs. And so whether or not you’re watching the presidential race and even in case you’re on the lookout for a possible upset in a Senate race, like in Texas, the place Ted Cruz on paper appears like he’s going to win and perhaps even win comfortably. However take note of Harris County, Texas, which, on Election Evening in 2012, Obama and Romney fought Harris County to principally a draw. I believe it was a matter of some hundred votes that separated them. Quick-forward, you realize, a decade. Democrats are carrying Harris County, which is the Houston suburbs—they’re carrying it by a quarter-million votes, 300,000 votes reliably, and that quantity’s solely going up.
So these are the elements of the nation the place I believe in case you’re paying shut consideration, you’ll begin to get a reasonably good concept.
Rosin: Okay. I believe we’ve got choices for the meditators and choices for individuals who can’t carry themselves to meditate. Thanks each for becoming a member of me on today earlier than the election.
Leibovich: Thanks, Hanna. Thanks, Tim.
Alberta: Mark, I’ll name you tomorrow. We are able to meditate collectively.
Leibovich: I stay up for it. Yep, we’ll be part of figurative fingers.
Rosin: This episode was produced by Kevin Townsend and edited by Claudine Ebeid. It was engineered by Rob Smierciak. Claudine Ebeid is the manager producer of Atlantic audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.
I’m Hanna Rosin, and we’ll be again later this week to cowl the election, although presumably sooner than our standard Thursday launch, relying on the outcomes.
Thanks for listening.
