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On this episode of The David Frum Present, David discusses how the Trump administration is in for a stark actuality test resulting from its commerce insurance policies. David additionally debunks the claims of a painless financial transition promised by President Donald Trump and makes the purpose that the administration shouldn’t be solely bluffing and mismanaging fiscal and commerce insurance policies, but in addition deceptive the general public with guarantees of simple success.
Then, David is joined by the premier of Ontario, Doug Ford, to debate Canadians’ reactions to the sudden financial and rhetorical assaults from their once-trusted American neighbors.
After the interview, David solutions listener questions concerning the Trump base, the media methods of fascists, and the hidden present of Trumpism.
The next is a transcript of the episode:
David Frum: Howdy, and welcome again to The David Frum Present. I’m David Frum, a employees author at The Atlantic, and I’m grateful that you’d be a part of us once more this second week of this system.
This week, my visitor will probably be Ontario Premier Doug Ford. Now, I ought to clarify, if anybody doesn’t understand it: I, too, am a Canadian and an Ontarian by delivery, and I nonetheless spend plenty of time there.
I’m going to be talking to the premier concerning the sense of shock and dismay that Canadians have felt about Donald Trump’s threats, not solely to the commerce association between Canada and the US, however his calls for that Canada be annexed to the US.
You realize, the Trump folks, once they’re making an attempt to justify the financial coverage that despatched world monetary markets into such chaos over the previous weeks, they attempt to current this as some type of confrontation with China alone, as a result of they don’t prefer to admit to Individuals that they’re waging a commerce conflict in opposition to your entire planet. This isn’t an anti-China marketing campaign; that is an anti-everybody marketing campaign. And it’s a marketing campaign through which America has virtually actually no allies, besides perhaps El Salvador.
The commerce conflict started with assaults on Canada, supposedly and traditionally America’s closest neighbor and ally. You’d assume when you had been making an attempt to construct an anti-China coalition, you’ll begin by consolidating the North American heartland, particularly the U.S.-Canada relationship. That’s precisely the alternative of what has occurred.
I’ll be speaking to the premier about that, how Canadians really feel about it—not a lot the details and figures of the connection, huge as it’s, however what it has been like for Canadians to be on the receiving finish of threats of annexation, threats of violence, and this unrelenting marketing campaign of tariffs and harassment, which has not been paused. The tariffs in opposition to China paused and unpaused. However these in opposition to Canada have remained persistently in place from the very starting of the Trump administration. It’s weird. It’s stunning. It’s upsetting. And that’s what we’re going to speak about this week on The David Frum Present.
After the interview, I will probably be discussing and answering some reader questions. However first, some opening ideas on the occasions of the previous week.
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Frum: When Donald Trump and people round him need to demean or dismiss some opponent, some critic, they generally use the phrase, He doesn’t have the playing cards. They’ve stated that about Volodymyr Zelensky and the Ukrainian folks’s resistance to Russian aggression. They’ve stated it about Canada and different buying and selling companions.
The implication is that the opposite particular person is simply too weak, too insignificant to be bothered to be worthy of respect. However there’s one other implication, too, which is that the US and the Trump administration does have the playing cards, is so mighty and fearsome that others should give method.
Now, the US is clearly a really highly effective nation with plenty of sources of command and management. However it is very important perceive that, the truth is, Donald Trump doesn’t have the playing cards that he thinks he does, and that’s one of many causes that this marketing campaign of financial aggression he’s launched—not in opposition to China however in opposition to the entire planet, each nation nearly, virtually each buying and selling nation—is coming amiss and can seemingly finish in failure, and even catastrophe.
Let’s simply take Donald Trump significantly for a second. He doesn’t deserve it, however let’s simply, for our personal sakes, do it: supposing a president of the US got here to workplace and stated, You realize what? My prime precedence goes to be reshoring manufacturing in the US. I personally don’t agree that this ought to be anyone’s prime precedence, however let’s suppose it had been a president’s prime precedence: reshoring manufacturing. That’s what Donald Trump says he desires to do. How would you go about it?
Properly, first you admit to your self, if to nobody else, that you’re proposing a really bold and costly process, one that can contain plenty of dislocation. So that you’d resist that. You’d attempt to construct some type of political consensus in favor of the bumpy, troublesome path you had been proposing for the nation. You’d maximize your mates at dwelling. You’d attain out to different events. You wouldn’t behave in an conceited method that had lots of people hoping to your failure, and you wouldn’t begin committing every kind of different offenses—and even crimes—that put you in every kind of precarious positions, the place something went fallacious, and your complete program would come a cropper.
You’d perceive you had been doing one thing that was not simple, was not going to be quick, was going to be expensive, was going to impose vital hardship on many individuals. You’d work with allies. You’d construct a big coalition as a result of even when as you’re shrinking your provide chains to maneuver issues away from China, you’re nonetheless going to want numerous sorts of inputs from different international locations—uncooked supplies, if nothing else. And also you’d need to make it possible for as many international locations as potential had been sympathetic to what you had been doing, slightly than wishing that you’d fail and fearing your aggression. You actually wouldn’t open campaigns of territorial aggression in opposition to neighbors and allies. You wouldn’t say, We’re going to annex Greenland from Denmark, and we’re going to attempt to conquer Canada and make it a 51st state. You wouldn’t do any of these issues.
You’d additionally perceive the connection between your monetary program and your financial program. Now, this can be a little technical, however it’s actually vital to understand. The rationale the US has such a giant commerce deficit is precisely and exactly as a result of the US imports a lot capital from different international locations. The present account and the capital account—to provide them their technical names—have to maneuver collectively.
So one cause the US has had such an enlargement of its commerce deficit lately is, first, that the US is importing a lot capital within the type of non-public funding. Persons are shopping for into American firms, which is an efficient factor. Nevertheless it’s additionally as a result of the US has run large finances deficits. So foreigners purchase plenty of American debt as a result of there’s plenty of American debt to purchase.
A primary step—and an indispensable step—in the direction of shrinking your commerce deficit is to shrink your finances deficit. So you’ll have a fiscal plan that labored in parallel to your commerce plan, your financial plan, whereas as a substitute of, as Donald Trump has finished, precisely the alternative. His plan is to make the deficit greater on a fantasy that with sufficient tariffs, he could make the commerce deficit smaller. And that’s not going to work.
You’d stage with folks. You wouldn’t promise folks fast and simple success. The hardships which have come, and are to come back, are going to reach and are arriving as a complete shock to Individuals. They had been promised that this was going to be fast and simple. Folks within the Trump administration are nonetheless promising that the inventory market will go up any day quickly, not understanding: You realize what? Reshoring all this manufacturing, it’s going to dislocate plenty of preparations. Loads of companies are going to shut. Lots of people are going to lose their jobs.
Possibly they’ll discover new ones. Conceivably—I don’t consider it, however conceivably—the brand new ones will probably be higher paid. Most likely not. However when you assume it’s kind of extra manly for Individuals to work with their palms in factories than to work in places of work or in service jobs, when you assume that that’s going to fortify the character of the nation and the financial sacrifice is value it, don’t go promising those that they’re going to be higher off, as a result of it’s not true. And they’ll discover, and they are going to be mad, and they’ll discover quickly.
Don’t additionally say that your aim right here is the strengthening of the American household. One of many issues we find out about households is they have an inclination to come back aside in occasions of financial misery, particularly the non-college educated. Throughout a recession, charges of divorce go up; charges of childbirth go down. If these are your prime priorities, perceive that they battle with the opposite prime precedence of reorganizing your entire American financial system.
Don’t additionally make plenty of appeals to freedom, as a result of a top-down reorganization of the American financial system is many issues, however a free-market venture it isn’t. It’s an act of state management, of state assertion, of central planning. Somebody has grimly joked of central planning with out a plan. However there’s a notion, there’s an idea that the folks on the prime—the folks with authority—assume {that a} sure method of organizing the financial system could be higher than different methods, they usually’re going to make use of the ability of the state to implement their imaginative and prescient.
So you need to drop all this speak about financial freedom, as a result of that’s not what we’re doing. Financial freedom belongs to those that are free merchants. With the reorientation of the financial system towards manufacturing, you’re committing to the tariff regime, which is extremely intrusive. You’re committing to in all probability numerous sorts of retraining applications. You’re committing to state subsidies to, at a minimal, to purchase off the farmers, however state subsidies in different industries too.
And finally, when you’re not going to have a shrunken finances deficit and also you’re going to do the tariffs and also you’re going to attempt to reshore manufacturing, ultimately, you’re going to find your self needing some type of capital or trade management to regulate the movement of cash out and in of your nation.
So this can be a massive, old school, wartime-economy venture, under no circumstances a free-market one. And also you’d higher acknowledge that to your self. As a substitute, what has occurred is that Trump has introduced this in a method that’s so false, so misleading, that the story goes to unravel quicker than he can ship any conceivable profit. By no means thoughts web profit—any profit in any respect.
So what he’s going to find is he’s doing this all with bluff. He doesn’t have the playing cards. His promise of simple, low cost success, effectively, it comes naturally to him as a result of he’s type of a flimflam artist, and all his life, he has bilked individuals who have trusted him. On this case, he’s making an attempt to bilk a complete nation.
I don’t fear about this, as a result of, as I say, I don’t want any of this venture effectively. I feel the entire venture is ill-conceived, even when it had been an trustworthy venture. And it’s not trustworthy. However I feel he has begun this venture by mendacity even to himself about how simple it’s going to be, how briskly it’s going to be, how remunerative it’s going to be. And I feel what all of us scent coming from this administration within the mild of the unraveling of self-deception is the scent of panic.
And that is the entire thing. That is the factor. I feel that the entire world—and particularly the Chinese language, who’re supposedly the targets of the Trump program—are smelling panic. They’re smelling worry. They’re smelling imminent defeat.
You realize, the US was bought this venture as a method of reaffirming American energy and greatness. In truth, what we’re witnessing is not only a disaster of the American financial system however a disaster of American energy. Every kind of different assets of the American state—the nice title, the credibility, the alliance system—all this stuff are additionally at risk proper now. And we’re going to discover ourselves, on the finish of this Trump program, which can be coming quicker than anybody believes—this complete factor might collapse fairly rapidly—however when it does collapse, it’s going to be exhausting to place collectively a second plan. It’s going to be exhausting to steer international locations which have been focused by the tariffs, the international locations which have been threatened with aggression, the international locations which have been deserted that the US has repented and can do higher.
And I’m not pondering right here nearly shut American buddies however a couple of nation like Vietnam, which is a historic enemy of China—which welcomed the opening of an financial tie to the US as a solution to each enrich themselves and likewise to provide them some leverage in opposition to their highly effective neighbor. They’re now pondering, As nasty because the Chinese language are, they could be extra dependable. And we’re seeing a revival of high-level visits between Vietnam and China in a method that’s going to be very exhausting to undo.
Authoritarian states like Vietnam have plenty of coverage continuity. As soon as they decide on one thing—it comes out of a giant bureaucratic technique of choice, however as soon as they decide on it—that turns into the plan. And in the event that they’ve develop into satisfied that the US below Donald Trump—that the US, typically—shouldn’t be a dependable companion, that’s not one thing they’re going to vary their thoughts about when the US says, Oops. Sorry it didn’t work out. We didn’t hit the Dow 50,000 goal that Peter Navarro promised. We’re rethinking this. We’re going to strive one thing else. We’ve bought to pause. We’ve bought an unpause, then we’re pausing once more and unpausing once more. By all of this, the US goes to seek out itself in worse and worse form.
And now my interview with Ontario Premier Doug Ford. After that, I’ll be answering questions from viewers and listeners. Please keep in mind to love and subscribe to The David Frum Present.
However first a fast break.
[Break]
Frum: Premier Ford, welcome.
Doug Ford: Properly, thanks for having me on, David.
Frum: I ought to point out I used to be born in Ontario. I’ve a home in Ontario. I pay property taxes in Ontario, however I don’t vote in Ontario, so that you get one of the best of all potential worlds from me.
Ford: (Laughs.) Properly, that’s nice. I can’t stand taxes. By no means raised a tax ever.
Frum: That is the place I need to begin. So that you’ve been working very exhausting on American tv—
Ford: Sure.
Frum: —speaking concerning the relationship between Canada and the US, between Ontario and the neighboring states, the details, the figures, the large dimension of this relationship. I need to transfer away from that meat-and-potatoes, facts-and-figures method to ask a kind of query I feel Individuals might not perceive and would recognize your perception into.
Loads of Individuals, even the people who find themselves not sympathetic to what President Trump is doing, deal with his feedback about Canada as type of a joke: Annexing the 51st state—it’s a troll. It’s a joke. I don’t assume they perceive the influence that that is having, that this sort of speak has on Canadians. So might you simply [say], as somebody who comes from a right-of-center background—not a tax raiser, not a big-government man—as somebody who comes from the identical a part of the world, mainly, because the Trump voters come from, how all of this lands when Canadians and Ontarians hear it?
Ford: Properly, what it’s, David, we’ve all the time thought ourselves a part of the household, and it’s been that method for, oh, generations. And I feel folks had been shocked. They had been disillusioned—if I might say the phrase harm—as a result of Canadians love Individuals. They completely love them. They spend plenty of time within the U.S. And Individuals love Canadians. I’ve talked to so many hardcore Trump supporters who’re saying, Yeah, I’d do something for Trump, however I don’t like the way in which he’s treating our—one man stated—little brother. And that’s the way in which we glance upon it too.
I spent 20 years of my life within the U.S., and I really like the U.S. I really like the American folks. I traveled fairly effectively to virtually each state quite a few occasions, and I simply consider we’re stronger collectively. I consider within the “Am-Can fortress,” the American-Canadian fortress. Put a hoop round it. Nobody can contact us.
We’ve got all of the pure assets, the power, every little thing that the U.S. wants, and we want the U.S. We’re the No. 1 buyer, as I name it. We’re their No. 1 buyer, so vice versa. And we simply must work collectively. The risk shouldn’t be Canada; it’s China. You must regulate China. I’ve been saying it for years now, and it’s coming to fruition.
Frum: I feel one of many issues that baffles lots of people within the Canadian enterprise neighborhood particularly is: It’s a posh relationship. There are all the time chafing factors. All people understands that lumber, dairy—there have been points that return a very long time. What I hear from folks within the enterprise world is that Trump folks aren’t saying something you may even say sure to. The grievances appear so imaginary. Everybody is aware of the medicine don’t movement from Canada to the US. They movement from the US to Canada. The weapons movement from the US to Canada. Flows of producers go from the US to Canada. Canada sends power, and there’s a commerce back-and-forth in companies. In order that they don’t hear it. Like, even when they needed to say sure, they will’t, as a result of the grievances don’t appear actual.
Ford: Properly, that’s as a result of they aren’t actual. It’s very, quite simple. And, , it’s the uncertainty that President Trump has put not simply on Canada, on your entire world. You realize, I all the time say you need to take a web page out of Ronald Reagan’s e-book again in 1988, on the free-trade deal. And, , protectionism doesn’t work. It doesn’t work anyplace on the earth. It received’t work between Canada and the U.S. The provision chain is so built-in.
Everybody’s heard concerning the auto elements going backwards and forwards six, seven, eight occasions earlier than they get assembled in a plant in Ontario or a plant within the U.S., be it Michigan or some other auto plant. I all the time say—, the Auto Pact’s been round since 1965—and you may’t unscramble an egg. You must make the omelet bigger. And that’s the auto sector. However there are such a lot of different sectors that the availability chain is so built-in. You simply can’t flip on a swap and switch it off.
Frum: Properly, you talked about the Auto Pact. I feel plenty of Individuals don’t perceive once they hear President Trump say and his surrogates say, We would like Canada to signal some nice new commerce deal, that Canadian-U.S. commerce has been wrapped in offers. They return to the Nineteen Fifties for protection, to the Sixties for autos, the primary Canada-U.S. Free Commerce Settlement to the ’80s, NAFTA replace within the ’90s, the Trump model of NAFTA within the 2010s.
And what Trump has been doing is saying, All these signatures don’t imply something. We would like one other set of signatures. And one of many questions I feel you should have and Canadians should have is, effectively, if the final set of signatures don’t imply something, why would you like new signatures?
Ford: And that’s what folks have been saying, David. You realize, President Trump made the final deal. I used to be a part of that cope with Secretary [Robert] Lighthizer. And President Trump stated it was the best deal ever. I suppose it’s not the best deal ever anymore. So I’m not too certain what he desires to do or the place he desires to go, however we’re simply stronger collectively. With all of the threats all over the world, we have to stick collectively.
When China’s reducing the U.S. off of vital minerals for his or her army use, we have now all of the vital minerals. Ontario has extra vital minerals than anyplace on the earth. We need to ship them all the way down to our closest good friend and ally to help them. As an illustration, nickel: 50 p.c of the high-grade nickel the U.S. makes use of comes from Sudbury. And I emphasize high-grade nickel. There’s a distinction. They use it of their army, use it of their aerospace, of their manufacturing. To not point out the aluminum and the metal and different vital minerals that I might record. And who higher to provide it to than our closest buddies?
Frum: I perceive you typically speak to Secretary of Commerce [Howard] Lutnick. What are these conversations like, with out asking you to say something you shouldn’t say? Does he place the decision? Do you place the decision? How do you greet one another? Is it cordial? What occurs on these calls?
Ford: Properly, it’s all the time cordial. He’s a really, very brilliant particular person. He understands the markets, and that’s why it’s mind-boggling to so many individuals, elected officers, private-sector people. He’s a sensible man, and the market’s talking. And if you see the market tumbling, it’s not about Wall Avenue dropping cash; it’s about Major Avenue dropping cash.
The mother and pops which might be on the market which have cash in pension funds—and we have now plenty of pension funds in Toronto, in all probability one of many largest group of pension funds—they make investments in all places on the earth, they usually make investments closely into the U.S. So when their pension fund drops $2 billion or $3 billion over a three-day interval, that’s regarding.
It’s regarding to those that need to make investments all over the world. They put that on maintain. We’re going to see inflation if you’re focusing on tariffs—which, by the way in which, I help all of the tariffs in opposition to China, however there’s a method of dealing with it.
Frum: Do you ever inform Secretary Lutnick that he might make everyone billions and billions of {dollars} if he might simply hold his yap shut for 48 hours?
Ford: (Laughs.) Properly, I by no means get private with the president, by no means get private with the secretary. However I’m not too certain in the event that they notice the influence on your entire world when one man speaks; it could actually shift every little thing. In order that they must be cognitive of each phrase that comes out of their mouth. It’s simply so, so vital for the U.S., for the residents, to make it possible for we proceed thriving and prospering. And that’s what would occur if we made this Am-Can fortress.
Frum: Are you able to speak a bit of bit concerning the 51st-state troll?
Ford: Sure.
Frum: As a result of Canada and the US have a relationship that’s so built-in, every little thing from migratory birds and the Nice Lakes. And vehicles break down on the bridges, and in the event that they break down on this a part of the bridge, it’s an American site visitors downside. In the event that they break down on this a part of the bridge, it’s a Canadian site visitors downside. Police coordination. Your relationship together with your counterparts in Lansing and Albany; you in all probability work with them each single day. And but they’re two international locations with completely different cultures and histories. Discuss a bit of bit about the way it feels to Canadians when Individuals say, Your nation doesn’t matter, though we have now this nice cooperative relationship.
Ford: Properly, what I did say to Secretary Lutnick, and I’ll say it publicly: The distinction between Individuals proper now—and I’ve an incredible quantity of buddies and contacts within the U.S.—they’re simply type of happening their method. They’ve woken up a bit of bit over the previous few weeks. However 40 million Canadians are at a fever pitch proper now. They’re prepared to sacrifice. They’re patriotic, like patriotism I’ve by no means seen. We all the time say how Canadians are so well mannered. Properly, they’re at a fever pitch proper now and prepared to do something and sacrifice something to guard their sovereignty. They usually’re passionate. Once more, I’ve by no means seen the patriotism like I’ve seen over the previous few months.
Frum: You simply received an election on these points.
Ford: Sure.
Frum: And there’s now one other election on the federal stage being fought, the place the Trump subject is central.
Ford: Sure.
Frum: Do you assume that the Trump folks perceive that they’re remaking Canadian politics in ways in which might shock them, in methods probably they could not like, due to their blundering interventions into Canadian life?
Ford: I feel they’re enjoying a big impact on Canadian politics. They performed a big impact on my election as working for a 3rd mandate, and I talked concerning the tariffs. That was an important subject on all our polling. Tariffs had been No. 1 as a result of that impacts their lives. You realize, I all the time say, the inspiration of our health-care system, schooling, our infrastructure, our enterprise—the inspiration is your financial system. That’s what retains every little thing going. And when there’s an assault in your financial system, that impacts each different sector right here in Canada, however it additionally impacts each sector within the U.S. as effectively.
Frum: Let me finish by asking you about the way in which ahead, the way in which again to normality. Prime Minister [Mark] Carney, who might or will not be prime minister subsequent month, he faces an election on the finish of April. Prime Minister Carney is kind of an interim prime minister. He stated nothing will ever be the identical, and proper now it is extremely exhausting to see a method again to regular. Do you see a method again? What would that appear to be, ranging from the place we’re, with the extraordinary feeling in Canada in opposition to what has been stated about Canada?
Ford: Properly, I all the time take a look at the glass being half full. I feel there’s a chance to drop these tariffs, construct on our strengths. We may be the 2 strongest, wealthiest, most affluent international locations on the earth. If we get the [Keystone] XL pipeline, begin heading south. We have to construct pipelines east, west, and north as effectively. We have to make it possible for we get the vital minerals out of the bottom and promote them to our buddies south of the border. And in the event that they’re at capability, then we ship them all over the world to our allies, not our foes. We need to ship them to our buddies and make Canada stronger and make the U.S. stronger and safer. That’s what we have to do. And we’re shopper gluttons in Canada. We hit method above our weight for 40 million folks.
Frum: Let me focus that query about the way in which again a bit of bit extra. In our earlier lives, I feel we are able to each keep in mind a time when Canada was a way more state-dominated financial system, rather more protectionist. There was a government-owned oil firm, government-owned different companies in locations the federal government had no enterprise being. There was plenty of distrust of American funding. There was international investment-review acts. We keep in mind the primary Trudeau authorities’s national-energy coverage, the place they tried to create a type of remoted Canadian power market.
You realize, from the ’60s to the ’80s, Canada was an inward-looking, isolationist, protectionist, state-dominated financial system, in a method that modified within the Nineteen Eighties with the free-trade settlement, the Mulroney authorities, and governments like yours, Ralph Klein in Alberta. Prime Minister Carney generally feels like he’s speaking about returning to that outdated method, the place there could be a made-in-Canada automobile, and that the worth of Trump to Canada is not only what he’s doing to Canada however the way in which he’s altering Canada to make Canada extra inward.
Do you are worried about that? Do you assume that’s a resistible pattern? Do you assume that’s a battle that may be received within the face of the type of strain on Canada immediately?
Ford: Properly, David, I completely disagree with that, something to do with protectionism. Do I consider in onshoring? I’ll provide you with a pair examples.
Aluminum cans: 65 p.c of the aluminum the U.S. wants comes from Quebec. So we ship down the aluminum. The 2 massive breweries and the 2 massive beverage firms, they print it, convert it, and ship it again up. They get hit 25 p.c on the way in which down, 25 p.c on the way in which again. It drives up the price to the buyer. And I’ve to ask, there’s a billion-dollar business. Why are we not making cans right here in Ontario? That’s one space.
I discovered the opposite day, we have now three massive metal crops—Stelco, Dofasco, and Algoma—and we don’t make metal beams right here. And we have now extra cranes within the sky in Toronto than New York, Chicago, Dallas, Houston, L.A., they usually even threw in Honolulu mixed. So we have to construct metal beams.
The final one, I’ll provide you with an instance. We ship wheat all the way down to the U.S., they usually make cereal. I discovered that we don’t also have a cereal producer right here. We used to have Kellogg. However these are easy areas that I consider in onshoring to make it possible for we have now a provide of cans at a decrease—
Frum: American spaghetti is all constructed from Canadian wheat, or virtually all.
Ford: Yeah, that’s proper. Yeah. After which a number of the packaging and spaghetti comes as much as Canada, which I’ve no downside with.
It was like [during] the pandemic, when President Trump lower us off from the N95 masks, effectively, we stood up an business in two months. And we’ll by no means depend on anybody in that space once more. We’re making our personal N95 masks, our robes, every little thing else right here. We are able to manufacture something in Canada, completely something.
Frum: You may have your hand on the on-off electrical energy swap flowing south to the US?
Ford: Yeah, I need to ship them extra electrical energy. You realize, we’re sharing the know-how of the small modular reactors. We’re leaders within the G7 on the SMRs.
And I simply had Governor [Spencer] Cox right here from Utah, a Republican governor. What a gentleman. The very first thing we did, we introduced them as much as Darlington, the place we’re making the small modular reactors. We’re working with U.S. firms—Basic Electrical, Tennessee Valley Authority, and Hitachi’s in there as effectively—however we’re saying, Right here. We’re going to share this know-how.
They want power, the U.S. We’ve got the power, we have now the know-how, and we’re sharing it with them. We’ve got orders for over $100 billion from Europe for the small modular reactors. And anybody who doesn’t perceive SMR—it may be any dimension, however let’s simply use it as roughly the scale of a Walmart. It might energy a city of 400,000 folks. And it’s handy. It’s clear, inexperienced, dependable, inexpensive power. That’s the way in which of the long run.
Frum: Thanks a lot for making time for us immediately.
Ford: Thanks, David. And I simply need to inform the Individuals, we love you. I really like the Individuals, and will God bless the U.S., and will God bless Canada. And let’s get by way of this and get this deal finished.
Frum: Thanks a lot. Bye-bye.
[Break]
Frum: Thanks to Premier Doug Ford for that candid, highly effective interview.
As talked about, I additionally dwell in Ontario. I’ve a home there, and I’ve witnessed myself what the premier has described. This surge of harm and dismay and, above all, shock amongst Canadians on the response to Canada within the Trump administration. What did Canada do to carry all of this hatred and want for annexation on? It’s very puzzling and really upsetting, and Premier Ford has been somebody who’s given highly effective voice to these emotions.
As talked about, we’re going to attempt to experiment with viewer and listener interplay on this program. It’s one thing that has been misplaced on the web—the collapse of remark sections from the early web, the demise of Twitter as any type of helpful platform of trade. I’m going to attempt to restore some interactivity right here. We’ll see the way it goes. Due to everybody who despatched a query. We’ve chosen three. I hope listeners and viewers will ship extra inquiries to producer@thedavidfrumshow.com. And listed here are the three for this week.
The primary comes from Paul within the Bay Space, and he asks, “Do you assume Trump supporters are having purchaser’s regret?”
Now, the Trump base is famously stable, highly effective, even type of threatening. Many in Congress on the Republican aspect hesitate to vote their consciences on issues like free commerce, as a result of they’re so scared of what Trump supporters contained in the celebration would possibly do. However elections aren’t misplaced from the bottom. Elections are misplaced on the fringe. Bear in mind: 1932, the Nice Melancholy. Individuals are going hungry. Transient camps on the sting of each American metropolis. Herbert Hoover nonetheless received 38 p.c of the vote in 1932. You don’t lose your base; that’s why it’s known as the bottom. What you lose is the perimeter and the sting. And there are plenty of indicators that President Trump is in serious trouble.
Throughout his first time period, his private approval was by no means that nice. Individuals noticed him for what he was, a bully—or perhaps not wholly for what he was, however they noticed plenty of what he was—a bully, loudmouth, type of a thug. They didn’t prefer it, however they did benefit from the financial system of 2017, 2018, and 2019. They didn’t care whether or not he’d finished it himself or whether or not he’d inherited it from Barack Obama. These had been good occasions, and folks appreciated it till the COVID crash, for which they largely didn’t blame Trump. They noticed that as some exterior occasion that perhaps he didn’t handle in addition to he might have, however it wasn’t his fault.
Now there’s plenty of knowledge that exhibits Trump’s financial numbers are heading south, and that’s earlier than vital layoffs have begun. So far, the disaster that Trump began totally on his personal has been a financial-market occasion. And it’s just like the gathering of a storm, not the storm itself. The storm is coming, and if it expresses itself in layoffs, in dwelling foreclosures, I feel you’ll see a giant response to that.
You already hear nervousness from Republican members of Congress concerning the 2026 elections. If these elections are allowed to proceed in a free and truthful method—which is, sadly, not the understanding that it should be—I feel there’s going to be a worth to pay for the errors of the previous months and the additional errors that appear to be coming.
So I don’t know that you simply’ll ever get, Paul, the type of response from the pro-Trump talkers on many platforms to say, We lied to you. We knew we had been mendacity. The entire thing was a catastrophe. We’re so sorry. We need to make some type of repentance. I don’t assume these people are ever going to apologize in the way in which that maybe you’d want. However will there be sufficient cracks within the Trump coalition to weaken the place of the Trump presidency resulting in the midterms? And can there be some type of correction within the midterms in the event that they’re allowed to occur? I feel the reply to that’s fairly strongly sure.
A query from Hans. In final week’s program, I made a reference to the way in which through which the far proper of immediately has develop into a really adept consumer of latest social media. And Hans requested, “I’ve been pondering for years that there was a comparability to be made between fascist authoritarian use of radio and movie within the Nineteen Twenties and Nineteen Thirties, and the proper’s use of social media immediately.” And he needed me to develop this thought some extra.
It’s a giant mistake to imagine that simply because folks have reactionary social views, that they are going to essentially be backward of their use of know-how. In truth, fairly the opposite, actually because they’re so alienated from the society of the current, they’re searching in every kind of unlooked-for locations in ways in which people who find themselves extra glad with society don’t.
For instance, cable TV has, clearly, viewers issues, and that’s a much-discussed reality. One of many issues that the brand new media have found is there’s a large, untapped viewers for conspiratorial anti-Semitism, and individuals who communicate to this could construct large on-line followings. Most of the most profitable podcasters of immediately have found conspiratorial anti-Semitism as an amazing useful resource, they usually’re constructing audiences bigger than CNN, MSNBC, even Fox.
Why? Cable information is a bit more old school that method, thank goodness, and is saying, You realize, though there’s a giant revenue to be made, we’re not going there. However new media has stated, We’re on the lookout for each type of new alternative, and if conspiratorial anti-Semitism is the wave of the long run, that’s for us.
And so that you see this flourishing of the worst type of concepts in essentially the most superior locations on the most recent platforms. I feel if we’re going to carry society onto a greater path, if we’re going to carry media and public dialogue onto a greater path, we’re going to must comply with the worst folks in society onto the most recent platforms and to speak within the latest methods. And that’s one of many issues I’m making an attempt to do right here on this platform, to say, You realize what? We are able to use the brand new media and nonetheless say conspiratorial anti-Semitism is for crackpots, cranks, and harsh folks of all other forms.
Query from Michael: “In your e-book Trumpocracy, you highlighted a number of the hidden presents of the Trump presidency. Eight years later, are we any near unwrapping and having fun with the fruits of these presents, or are we liable to squandering them ceaselessly?”
So this can be a reference to an statement I made in a long-ago e-book about there being potential advantages. One of many issues that may be a present of Trump, and perhaps not a present any of us need, is: Trump’s second time period brings to Individuals the present of humility. I feel plenty of Individuals have an assumption that issues that occur elsewhere at different durations in historical past might by no means occur right here. A well-known e-book about American fascism bears the title It Can’t Occur Right here.
I feel Donald Trump is exhibiting that Individuals belong to the identical human race because the Germans, the Italians, and the Japanese. We aren’t particular creatures of God. We aren’t resistant to the vices of humanity. America has had, on the entire, a extra lucky historical past than different international locations—not in each method an ideal historical past, however a extra lucky historical past. And so political extremism has tended to not get the acquisition in the US than it has in much less lucky international locations.
However there isn’t a innate American immunity to extremism. And there’s no assure that America should keep a democracy ceaselessly. It’s actually as much as all of us, and Donald Trump has taught us that lesson—is instructing us that lesson. If we need to hold what has been nice and good about America, we’re going to must work over the following years the way in which Individuals have seldom labored earlier than of their political historical past.
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Frum: This episode of The David Frum Present was produced by Nathaniel Frum and edited by Andrea Valdez. It was engineered by Dave Grein. Our theme is by Andrew M. Edwards. Claudine Ebeid is the chief producer of Atlantic audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.
I’m David Frum. Thanks for listening.
